Boat upgrade - and the petrol versus diesel question!

[sprocker]

After spending many weekends, and quite a few long weekends, afloat this season, we have (once again) decided we need a bigger boat! Our current MF645 is fine for a couple of nights tied to the pontoon with marina facilities to hand, but we want to stretch our cruising legs next year, and get a little further, for longer, and in more comfort. We are looking at upgrading to something around the 29/30 foot mark.

I really like the whole Merry Fisher concept, and love outboard engines for their ease & cost of servicing, and the fact that I can lift right out of the water and flush after every trip.

So my immediate thought is to upgrade to a MF855, with possibly twin 150hp as I do fancy a to move to twins, because of the redundancy aspect.

The other potential is something along the lines of a Sealine S28, with twin Kad32 on outdrives.

My only issue with the MF855 is fuel cost, although I am thinking that the saving in servicing costs when compared to twin diesels with outdrives would more than offset the extra cost in petrol for the hours cruising that we intend to do.

The only other potential issue is the lack of availability of petrol at many harbours, although most of our cruising will be 50 mile 'hops' so easily achievable there and back on a single tank with decent margin for error.

Do you guys have any thoughts on this?

[Ianfs]

Your choices are similar to the ones SWMBO and I have been debating over the last few months.

I nearly bought a Sealine 25 but was put off because of its beam and that for an occasional overnight, might become cramped after a while. We then looked at a Sunseeker 32 which had been re-engine with bigger Yanmars but I couldn't stand up in the Galley, so we turned our attentions to the Sealine 28. A great boat and with twin KAD32's would give a good top end with economy although the second under cockpit cabin was not cramped but wasn't roomy either. After looking around though we found we like Doral's, although finding one at the right price with the right engine combination is hard. Then we found a Fairline Targa 29, the aft cabin is a stand up with loads of room, great cockpit space and good accommodation generally, most have KAD 32's and they are built like brick, well you know, with a nice wide beam and over 30knts top end with reasonable economy. Trouble is, their owners seem to think they are worth a lot and put them up for silly money half the time. The one I looked at we nearly bought except it had a rebuilt engine with loads of marks on the hull including a dubious bulkhead bulge and with its history was not for me.

What we have been finding is that English boats of 1990-2000 tend to be the same asking price of Canadian/American boats of 2003-2008 year builds. There are a lot of US built boats with petrol engines out there, but just the same there are some with Diesel, usually Mercruiser/Cummins.

There are also some great single engine diesel boats out there, Bavaria 300 sport for example or possibly SeaRay and again this is a debate we are having. I have even thought of buying a boat with petrol engines if it were cheap enough, working out the additional fuel consumption compared to the extra cost of a diesel boat. This is always a difficult one but you would have to be able to buy it so cheap to offset its residual in a few years time.

[sprocker]

Thankyou for your reply Ian, we have viewed a few of the boats on your list, and I totally agree with your comments on the Fairline Targa.

Of all the diesel engined craft we like the Sealine S28 most, and agree the bomb proof twin KAD32 would be a good choice, although the Sealine S29 with twin D4 190hp (and twin tanks!) would be preferable, but probably outside of our budget.

My head at the moment is still telling me Merry Fisher 855 with twin 150 outboard, although we haven't actually been aboard one yet, I have only heard good reviews, and I do like the overall look of them. We are actually going to view one this coming Friday so our minds may yet be changed.

The age of the boat also comes into it for me, I can probably get a 5 year old Merry Fisher for the same money as a 12 year old Sealine, or 15 year old Fairline.

We still have lots to think about........

[Bigplumbs]

For me it is about being outside. I don't like helming inside on a nice day. It defeats the object for me

Dennis

[betty boop]

For me it is about being outside. I don't like helming inside on a nice day. It defeats the object for me

Dennis

I agree on that one, we looked at a MF and although it was just towable with it's OB on theback the cabin defeated the object of the exercise. by the time I want a full cabin I'll be trading in for a camper van to escape the elements. That said if youre fishing Id rather get there in a cabined MF than my open fisher.

As a side note we have a lot of Fairlines up here, at the moment I'm only 10 mins from the factory and desperately thinking of how I can persude them to employ me in some boatie fashion and I've heard a few stories of the owners lording it at various marina's (plastic vs flat bottoms rather than yachties )

[BruceK]

Not so long ago I was in the same position as you. If I can give any opinion (opinion note, not advice) it would not be about which boat but about engine and size. Firstly you think about cruising now so diesel is a no brainer. Don't be tempted by anything else and dont limit your ambitions. It's not just about easy availability, it is very much about cost. I pay 60p a litre, half of what I'd pay for petrol and consume 2/3's of what I'd be using if petrol. What does that mean? Well this season I took on (rough equations) 3000 litres which cost me £1800 for ~75 hours cruising and gave me ~1300 miles. Had I been petrol I'd have had to take an estimated 4500 litres for a cost of £5400 to achieve the same distance.
i.e. £3600 p.a. more. Not too bad. Then I tell you for your £3600 pounds you get to cart at least 3000 of those litres by hand from a fuel station up to 2 miles away in 10 to 20 litre jerry cans over the year. You can see how very quickly the idea of cruising is going to go right out the window leaving you with a boat that does not fulfil your ambition.

I have a couple of friends who can tell you this first hand btw. It cost them dearly.

Next is where will you be keeping the boat because marina berths seem to largely work up to 10m, 10 to 12, 12 and above. The scenario is 10m berths are widely available and cost effective. There is a waiting list for 10-12 that can sometimes be more than a couple seasons and you get stung on costs. And 12m and above you dont worry about either of these things because you have loadsa money and can buy the love. Why the 10-12m class then? Because when it comes to size you will quickly find your 30 foot boat just doesn't quite cut it in the cruising stakes. A weekender at best. Everything is still cramped and a squeeze. Sure it looks big a liveable when empty but actually pack it with goodies for a week plus kids and you will see. In mobo terms 33 foot to 40 foot is the magic compromise between useable space and running costs. That extra 6 foot doesn't just double weight and volume it really does make the difference. That's not my opinion, look at any marina, they know it too and have capitalised on it. That is why the boats in this class command such silly prices 2nd hand.

Lastly I have an American boat. If I was to give any advice on that score is that the market perceives American sports boats as lake boats. Some are. We know the brands. Some aren't. Look for boat companies that make boats in the Gulf etc rather than those on the Great Lakes. Not that those built on the shores of the Great Lakes are bad, just that those don't always suit our waters and are generally petrol to begin with whereas the Gulf boats have an even mix of the two types and so diesel versions are more readily available.

[sprocker]

@ BP & Betty - I do understand what you mean, although helming inside for me is not a major issue, as the sliding sunroofs open the inside up to the sun.

@Bruce - Very good response thankyou, and it has opened my mind even more to diesels. Although I am not totally convinced about the cost difference of fuel begin as much as it used to be, with todays generation of efficient four stroke outboards narrowing the gap.
A recent boat test of the MF855 with a single 300hp Suzuki (85% fuel load, 2 people) showed an average of just over 2mpg at a 21knot cruising speed, which equated almost exactly to what the tester got from his own Sealine S28 with twin Kad32's. I guess with the 60/40 split (At the moment) it makes diesel cheaper to buy, but my research has shown that the extra cost of servicing twin KAD32 with outdrives would be around £1000 per annum when compared to twin outboards, which with our intended cruising ranges at the moment (We don't do anything like your mileage) means the petrol outboard would work out much cheaper.

I guess the real saving of diesel on outdrives would only come if/when I had the time to do my own servicing (Which I understand that you do?), but for the next few years at least my work commitments stop me from putting in the time and effort required. Unless I could get some intensive training on the subject.

I think one thing that sticks in my mind is the old shafts versus outdrives argument that you see regularly on the 'other' forum, and the shaft drive owners argument that outdrives are the spawn of the devil and just waiting to break down and be expensive to fix at every turn of the prop. Do members here have any thoughts on that?

[BruceK]

My outdrives are 27 years old. What's the issue again?

If you stay under 10m then the the question of outboards is moot, pros and cons each way. That I will agree. However you will struggle to find any cruiser over 10m with an outboard(s). It's a torque thing. Petrols have the HP but dont have the torque to get big cruisers over the hump as a generalisation. Diesels have a much flatter more useable torque curve. If you really want to be able to cruise, and by that I mean spend more than a week on the boat at a time you really need to go above 10m unless you come from a raggie background and used to living cramped.

You wont do anything like my mileage? Dont kid yourself. If you buy a cruiser you will. That is the whole joy about cruising. And if you want a floating caravan even more reason to go 10m and above. The national average is about 50 hours per year. Considering most cruisers are marina queens you will note that it doesn't take much to put 50 hours on a cruiser. It's not like a wakeboarding boat which may accumulate hours in lots of short bursts but little distance, these things will run for 4 hours each trot and cover 80 miles. Just the other weekend I did 80 odd miles just to go to lunch. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=767

Going out for a week holiday and cruising 4 hours a day (weekend, working week, weekend) will put 45 hours on

[ian h]

I think one thing that sticks in my mind is the old shafts versus outdrives argument that you see regularly on the 'other' forum, and the shaft drive owners argument that outdrives are the spawn of the devil and just waiting to break down and be expensive to fix at every turn of the prop. Do members here have any thoughts on that?

All down to regular and correct maintenance , My boat is 17 years old I have owned it for 7 years, No problems with outdrives , Although I am dry stacked,
Look after the mechanicals and the boat looks after you

[sprocker]

Do you consider outdrives to be a 'self maintenance' item? I'm just trying to build up an idea of realistic annual maintenance costs to set a budget.

I know how much it would cost for my local Volvo engineer to maintain, but just wondering if doing it myself, even every other year, is a realistic task.

I'm a mechanical engineer, so not scared of taking things apart, but I'm also knocking on close to 60, and wondering if the size/weight of the outdrive will
get to be too much for one person as I advance in years........